Laurence Juber has no need to rely on his past, therefore, he
isn’t afraid to revisit it every now and then.
Often considered most famous for playing lead guitar in Wings from
1978 to 1981, he has since had a distinguished career as a solo fingerstyle
guitarist.
The two-time Grammy award-winning artist has developed a
reputation as a world-class guitar virtuoso solo artist, composer and arranger,
and released 15 critically acclaimed solo albums since Wings folded. His latest, LJ Plays The Beatles Vol. 2
(Solid Air, 2010), released on August 10 is a solo acoustic guitar arrangement
of 15 songs by John Lennon and Paul McCartney.
It is also the long-awaited sequel to LJ Plays the Beatles (Solid Air,
2000), which was voted one of Acoustic Guitar magazine’s top 10 all-time
acoustic albums.
In this candid and definitive two-part interview, Juber discusses
the influence of the Beatles on his life, his career as a studio musician in
London, the making of Back to the Egg and how he earned his musical degree from
‘McCartney University.’
M.T.’: I heard a curious story about you that almost seemed too
good to be true, and so I have to ask – the first week that “I Want to Hold
Your Hand” was released in Britain, it was also the same week you first picked
up a guitar…true or false?
Juber: That’s essentially true.
I had been wanting to pick up a guitar for some time, but there was a
period in the summer of 1963 where Beatlemania came into full force in the
UK. As a result, you really couldn’t get
away from the fact that everything was all about pop music, especially at such
an impressionable age. I really wanted
to play the guitar, not specifically because of the Beatles, but because of The
Shadows, who were Cliff Richard’s backing group and they performed all of these
instrumental hits – that was just wonderful stuff. Then at the same time it was the start of the
James Bond films, which had great twangy guitar sounds, which also influenced
me.
In England music lessons started in junior high, so that was right
around the start of my musical journey.
My dad had wanted me to play the saxophone and at the time, I didn’t
want to play the sax, so I compromised and said I’d play the clarinet. It turned out there weren’t enough clarinets
to go around, so I got a guitar for my 11th birthday, which was in November of
1963. “I Want to Hold Your Hand” came
out about a week later. So it wasn’t
specifically the Beatles as much as it was the entire pop scene and all the
energy that was going around at the time.
The Beatles were a significant part of the whole thing happening
in music. It was like jumping into a
river and being carried along by the current because it was all going in that
direction. I went into my teen years
being swept along in this amazing Renaissance that was happening in pop music
in England at the time.
M.T.’: And so who are the other musical influences you had as a
youth?
Juber: It’s an extremely long list, too long to detail here
because I was listening to everything. I
was not only into rock ‘n’ roll but jazz and folk too. By the time I had turned 13, people were
paying me to play. It was then I
realized that this was something that I wanted to do for a living, but I also
recognized that I had a certain kind of versatility. I was interested in a lot of different styles
of music. I learned to how finger-pick
Bob Dylan tunes, learned to play the Bossa Nova, taking jazz records and
slowing them down from 33 1/3 to 16 so I could figure out what the guitar was
doing. There were also a lot of West
Coast jazz and studio players like Barney Kessell and Howard Roberts, as well
as the Belgian gypsy jazz guitarist Django Reinhardt, who was very popular in
England. There was also the English folk
scene with people like Bert Jansch and Martin Carthy, who are still great folk
singers, and finger-pickers.
I also had a band with a group of friends, and we’d play every
Saturday night. We were always buying
the latest Beatles records, the Stones, the Who and we’d learn it, rehearse it,
play it and that was our Saturday night thing. Then I got into Clapton, Beck,
Page — the English blues-driven players.
There was also Radio Luxembourg, which played all the Top 40 tunes
before the BBC got hip. I guess they had
to because of all the pirate radio stations.
They played all the big American hits as well as Motown, which of
course, was great. I’d listen at night,
focus in on what the bass player was doing, what the drummer was doing, and
really deconstruct the music. I also
started listening to orchestral music and became very analytical about how I
listened to that too. So, a lot of
influences, way more than I could repeat.
M.T.’: I assume your parents must have been quite encouraging?
Juber: There was some encouragement up to a certain point. Both of my parents grew up in London in World
War II during the blitz and the evacuations so they never had much of an
education. My dad left school at 14 and
my mom at 15. They were encouraging to
the point where they thought it was great, I kept myself occupied with a hobby
but they wanted to make sure that I had something to fall back on. They had visions of me being a doctor or at
the very least a pharmacist or accountant or something like that. I told them at a very young age I intended to
make my living as a guitar player, so they were supportive to a point. I also didn’t grow up in a very musical
household, so that level of nurture really came from inside. I was very self-directed.
M.T.’: After you graduated from London University with a Bachelor
of Music in 1975, how did you start getting booked as a studio musician and
where were some sessions/albums you played on pre-Wings?
Juber: My ambition in life was to become a studio musician, so
after high school I took a year off, which is what they now call the “gap”
year. I was a pioneer of the gap year
(laughs). What I did was work
professionally for that one year, and I was playing jazz and folk clubs and
demo sessions, generally making myself available as a musician and paying dues
in London. I also joined the National
Youth Jazz Orchestra, which was something of a training ground for studio
musicians. I then attended London
University but I was still gigging, playing clubs and being the substitute
guitarist for the West End production of Jesus Christ Superstar. I was supporting myself with music and
learning as much as I could, but more importantly, making those connections to
be able to transition full-time into a studio musician when I graduated. My reputation got around and I eventually was
introduced to various record producers and arrangers.
One of the albums I played on was Alan Parson’s Tales of Mystery
and Imagination. I had no idea at the
time what the session was for. I found
out from a magazine interview that Alan did 30 years later. I played on the score for The Spy Who Love
Me, which was a James Bond film. I
played on a cool record that Rosemary Clooney did in London. I also worked with Shirley Bassey, John
Williams and Jimmy Rafferty. One of the
first album sessions I did was for Cleo Laine, who is a great English jazz
singer and the producer was George Martin.
Sessions for European artists too:
Charles Aznavour from France, Lucio Battiste from Italy. A lot of stuff that didn’t necessarily make
an impression on the US market. I played
on a lot of records for a French artist named Cerrone, who was the ‘other’ Euro
disco king, sort of like Georgio Moroder.
Again, I had no idea how successful the releases were until many years
later. I was very busy in that period.
M.T.’: Tell us how you got the gig for Wings?
Juber: I was working in the house band for “The David Essex Show”
and Denny Laine was as guest on the show.
Denny played “Go Now” and liked how I played the solo. We bonded
musically and that was it. About six
months later I got a call from Paul’s office MPL – ironically, I was playing a
session at Abbey Road Studios 2. They
said, “Denny wants to know if you can come jam on Monday, and, oh by the way
Paul and Linda will be there…”
In the period between when I first met Denny and the audition, I
actually ran into all of them at Air Studios.
I was early for a session and they were in there mixing the soundtrack
for “Oriental Nightfish,” Linda’s tune for an animated film. They were running late and invited me in to
see what was going on, so I got to meet everybody and hang out. Jimmy McCullough was already out of the band
at that point, but it really wasn’t on my radar that they were looking for a
guitar player. I do remember that around
that time I was working on a TV show in Manchester, which was a weekly pop show
and it was the first time that I had seen the video for “With a Little
Luck.” It was the first thing where
Steve Holly was visible and I remember someone saying, “That’s the new Wings
drummer and I hear they’re looking for a guitarist.” Then I got this call from out of the blue.
M.T.’: From what I understand, the audition process was very
informal, jamming and playing a bunch of rock (“Johnny B. Goode”) and reggae
songs, and hanging out.
Juber: Very much so. I
really didn’t know much of the Wings’ repertoire and I had to borrow a bunch of
albums from my brother the previous weekend.
I tend to do well at cold auditions and I was lucky. Really, I was quite busy with my session work
and I had a big choice to make: do I continue along with my career, that I had
been working on since I was a teenager or do I join Wings? I thought about it for a nanosecond. It seemed like one of those gigs that you
shouldn’t turn down and I’m glad I didn’t, because I learned so much from that
experience.
M.T.’: What was your first official gig for Wings?
Juber: The first official gig was when we recorded a song at RAK
Studios in London called “Same Time Next Year” and I believe that was in May
1978. (Editor’s note: Curiously, the song was released on the final credits of
the 1985 Ann-Margret film, Twice in a Lifetime) I had another gig playing on a
variety show, so I couldn’t be at the session for the string overdubs. Then we went up to Scotland (at McCartney’s
farm) getting to know each other. During
that period is when we filmed the video for “I’ve Had Enough” (the second
single from London Town).
M.T.’: I always thought it was strange that you had to mimic a
guitar part that Jimmy McCullough recorded.
Did it seem strange to you?
Juber: It wasn’t strange at all.
That’s kind of par for the course as a musician because you often find
yourself playing someone else’s part, especially if it’s a famous song. To be honest, I knew I was stepping into
Jimmy McCullough’s shoes and it was a perfectly reasonable transition. I really
didn’t give it much thought, but what was interesting was the filming of the
video. We shot it all night and it was a
one-camera shoot with film that was transferred to video. I had never done a video before because I had
only done live TV shows up to that point.
Here’s a funny story: years
later I played a guitar part for Eric Carmen on a song called “Make Me Lose
Control”, which became a hit. As the
record was about to come out, I got a call from a company who wanted me to be
in the video. Well, they had no idea I
had played on the record and thought I would be mimicking someone else’s
performance. So I got to mimic my own.
M.T.’: Back to the Egg was a big concept, had a big sound and
certainly was an ambitious undertaking (i.e. Rockestra, videos, touring,
promotion). Do you think that was tied
to the fact that McCartney had just signed a new multi-million dollar contract
for Columbia or that he had felt it was time to do something bigger with Wings?
Juber: There was no perception in the doing of it that it was
‘bigger’ than normal. I think what
happened with that album, and the title was reflective of the fact, was that
Paul had been heading in a softer direction and this was a change. After Wings Over America, he recorded “Mull
of Kintyre” and “With A Little Luck” and the London Town sessions. There wasn’t really as much of a rock
component to those sessions. “I’ve Had
Enough” was about as heavy as things got at that point. Steve Holly was a heavier and more rocking
drummer than Joe English, which is not a jab at Joe, it was just a matter of
styles. Steve had more of a British
backbeat.
Producer Chris Thomas (Pink Floyd, Elton John, Roxy Music, INXS)
had already been brought on board to co-produce the record. If you look at Chris’ timeline, he did Back
to the Egg between the Sex Pistols and The Pretenders. He tends to raise the concept level of his
projects and is a Beatle insider going back to the White Album. Phil McDonald engineered, who was one of the
Abbey Road-era people too. We knew from
the get-go that it was going to be a more basic vibe. There’s certainly a significant rock element
to that album especially in the “Rockestra” bits, and there’s also, which was
typical in the 1970s English rock scene, a folk element. I mean, you saw that a lot with Led Zeppelin
and Jethro Tull, but of course, Paul articulates it in his own way. So yes, it was going to be a rock-flavored
album, but it was still just an eclectic bunch of songs.
There was a richness to the Columbia record deal that had given
Paul a substantial publishing catalog and the label certainly had ambitions at
the time. It was overseen by Walter
Yentikoff, Bruce Lundvall, Don Devito, Paul Atkinson and other people who were
quite legendary figures in the record business.
Certainly there was an expectation that putting Paul McCartney on your
record label would have a certain kind of size to it, but by the time it was
released in June 1979 the economy was not doing that great and the record
business hit the wall. All of the labels
had gotten it into their heads that somehow every album that was released
should do better than Fleetwood Mac’s Rumors or Saturday Night Fever. That was a phase and sales went back to
normal, relatively speaking. Just the
ebb and flow of things. Nevertheless,
Back to the Egg did quite well and could have done even better had he put
“Goodnight Tonight” on the album.
M.T.’: Agreed. I’ve always
felt that was a major mistake on his part and the difference between going
platinum and triple platinum had he included “Goodnight Tonight” (a Top 5 hit
in America) and “Daytime Nightime Suffering” on the album.
Juber: Absolutely, it would have made a significant
difference. But that goes back to the
Beatles and the mentality about singles and albums. The Beatles deal with EMI was two albums a
year and and four singles, A and B sides.
So, with very few exceptions, in the UK you didn’t get the singles on
the albums. But we had talked about
it…he said, “They want to do this but I’d rather give more value for
money…” So it didn’t get put on the
album.
M.T.’: And the same thing happened again with “Coming Up,” which
Paul was later forced to put on McCartney II as a 7-inch single.
Juber: That was interesting, too, because what happened with Back
to the Egg, and continued through the UK tour was that we kind of forged
ourselves as a rock band. You can hear
it on the Last Flight CD (a bootleg CD from their last live show) from Glasgow,
Scotland, and the released live version of “Coming Up” came from that show. There was a dichotomy going on where we were
a tight rock band and Paul had just done the solo album McCartney II, which was
kind of quirky and a bit left-field. And
quite truthfully, Columbia didn’t know how to market Paul’s music like Capitol
did. But they did take notice when US rock radio started playing the live
B-side of the single and it went to No. 1 for three weeks in the Summer of
1980. Columbia were obliged to add the
7-inch single to the McCartney II album as people were expecting the single to
be on there. Paul’s video was cool though.
We did the UK tour with the Japanese tour lined up right behind
it, and the intention to tour the US in the summer of 1980. So when you listen to the live stuff, there’s
this rock band, a certain kind of heaviness that evolved out of the Back to the
Egg sessions. The problem was that where
Paul was going in terms of his writing was a different direction, which
ultimately turned out to be Tug of War and Pipes of Peace. It was a body of material that wasn’t as well
suited to a rock band, and neither of those are rock albums. Tunes like “Ballroom Dancing” and “Average
Person” are coming from a different place.
It’s more of a mature sound and it’s an artist who is settling down into
a true solo career, who has his kids settled in school and has moved out of
London. After John Lennon died, which
had to play some role in all of this, Paul didn’t tour again until 1989.
M.T.’: So Wings had actually rehearsed the material for the Tug of
War sessions?
Juber: Yes, but most of those sessions were unproductive because
we were working on songs that were more mature and not reflective of
Wings. We had evolved a band identity
and this was feeling more like a Macca solo project; I would have been happier
developing the tunes in the studio rather than rehearsals. It was a step back in a way for me, because,
working within the band context, Paul gave me a great deal of latitude on Back
to the Egg. There I’d offer up an idea
and he’d either nod or he’d kind of raise an eyebrow and then I’d tweak
it. I remember very specifically when we
were mixing “After the Ball,” I’d played an acoustic slide part and sat there
just thinking, “I’d like to get my hand on that fader.” I’d never been an engineer at that point and
Paul noticed my discomfort and said, “Laurence, you run that fader.” Not only did he accept my contribution but
encouraged me to put it to the forefront.
M.T.’: Your personality certainly shows on Back to the Egg, which
is interesting given your versatility and adaptability.
Juber: It’s interesting because at the time I was being my
chameleon self as a studio player. In
the course of time, and this is something you don’t recognize at the time, I
can listen back and say with some objectivity, “Hey, I had a sound and style back
then.”
M.T.’: And it was a nice fit in that particular incarnation of the
band – each of you had roles within the band and you not only played them
perfectly, but there was room enough for everyone to shine and let your
personality show through.
Juber: I think so, certainly in the musical sense. Obviously there were other dynamics going on
within the band in terms of where Paul and Linda were at in their lives, what
was going on with Denny in his life, the more personality-driven aspects of the
band.
M.T.’: You’ve stated before that watching Paul in the studio was
an eye-opening experience because you were able to see him as a composer and
how he fleshed out songs. So with that
said, did he come into the studio with the finished song in his head and you
just laid down the tracks, or was it a situation that he fleshed them out with
your help?
Juber: A lot of the time it was a finished song, but not
always. In the case of “Old Siam, Sir,”
we were jamming one day and Steve Holly was playing keyboards and had this
chord sequence. I’m not sure if Paul was
playing drums or if it was Linda because we’d trade off in a jamming situation,
but what ended up happening was that ended up in the instrumental section of
the song. I always felt that Steve
should have received some sort of nod for that.
Unfortunately, that’s the nature of the process in that you don’t always
get full credit for what you contribute as a musician, especially as the
song-writing is traditionally words and melody, not chords, licks and
grooves. If you could copyright a
rhythm, Bo Diddley would have been very happy.
M.T.’: But was there a time when you did see Paul flesh out a song
that was half-finished or not a full idea?
Juber: Yes, Denny had written two incomplete songs and Paul
suggested he merge the two, and that turned out to be “Again and Again and
Again.” That was Paul kind of wearing
his producer hat at the time, but to the best of my recollection, most of the
songs he brought in for Back to the Egg were complete to the extent where there
might be a minor change to a lyric, but the song itself was pretty much there.
“Getting Closer” and the unreleased song “Cage” were off of demos,
the latter being one that Paul and Denny did together. There were times when there was a demo aspect
to the sessions, and in some cases we created demos to see how the tune was
shaping up. We did a version of “Love
Awake” that wasn’t a final version, as well as a demo of “Rockestra Theme” with
just Wings so that everybody else could hear before the big session. Typically the song was there, but in terms of
production, getting the sound and arrangements right, that mostly took place in
the studio. I remember “Daytime Nightime
Suffering”, which he composed over the weekend and came in with that on a Monday
morning and we went right to work on it.
Paul was always very concise with his writing and was usually complete
by the time we came to record it. So the
fleshing out was always on the production end of things, and occasionally we’d
hear something that he was working on and then the next time he played it you
could hear the progression. “Ebony and Ivory” comes to mind.
M.T.’: The group recorded “Back to the Egg” in several different
places – McCartney’s farm in Scotland; Lympne Castle in Kent and Replica and
EMI Studios in London. In your opinion,
did your surroundings have any influence on how you played or recorded a song?
Juber: I certainly think the surroundings impacted the sound of
the record. For example, we were
recording “We’re Open Tonight” at Lympne Castle and I was sitting in the middle
of a spiral staircase in a 13th Century castle with a 12-string acoustic
guitar. There’s certainly something to
be said for the ambient aspect of your surroundings. Being on the farm in Scotland definitely
added to the rawness of “Spin It On” “Old Siam, Sir” and “To You”.
M.T.’: Wouldn’t it be fair to say that Back to the Egg is a
British-sounding album?
Juber: It is very British. Other than the Fender, Gibson and
Martin guitars, there’s nothing American about the sound of it and some of that
is purely technical. Amplifiers sound
different at 50 cycles than they do at 60 cycles. Just the AC power makes a difference to the
sound of the equipment, the way the record was produced, the way the drums were
miked, was more English than American; the players were English. Look at Ram…it sounds so much like a New York
album. It was recorded in there and the
players were all from the area, and there’s kind of a New York energy to
it. Denny Seiwell shines on that record.
Conversely, we did a lot of stuff at Abbey Road, which is about as
English as it gets. We created Replica Studio in the basement of Paul’s office
Soho Square primarily for mixing, but we did some recording there too. The track for “Daytime Nightime Suffering”
was all recorded there. The drums were
placed in a room where the coffee machine was.
That’s where I also did the acoustic solo for “Goodnight Tonight.” It’s a different kind of vibe.
M.T.’: Back to the Egg was not only a big and powerful album, but
it was eclectic. The range of songs from
full on rockers (“Rockestra Theme”; “Spin it On”; “So Glad to See You Here;
“Old Siam, Sir”) to mid-tempo (“Arrow Through Me”; “Again and Again and Again”)
to ballads (“Winter Rose/Love Awake”) to original standards (“Baby’s Request”)
to instrumentals (“Reception” and “Rockestra Theme”). I recall seeing a Brian Wilson interview on
television saying how much fun and wild Wings were because he never knew what
to expect.
Juber: I had no idea he said that…that’s great because, if anyone
is equally eclectic to Paul in terms of the production process, it’s Brian
Wilson. And, of course, Brian was
revered in England. Pet Sounds was not a
huge hit in America but it was the Sergeant Pepper precursor in England. I’d have to say Paul was the most eclectic
artist I’ve ever worked with. It’s in
his nature. This goes back to the
Beatles. They were a very eclectic band. How many bands can you look at and say this
was an incredible live rock ‘n’ roll band, before they ever made a record! They were also an incredible R & B
band…look at their R & B influences, especially John. “All I’ve Got to Do” is proto-Al Green. Take that song and look at it, it’s in that
Smokey Robinson kind of area. In fact,
it was one of the songs I did for LJ Plays the Beatles Vol. 2. It was so cool to do because it had such an
immediate vibe about it. Their version
of the Shirelles “Baby, It’s You” is as good, if not better than the original
version. Fantastic R & B group, but
you add that to the fact they were the most phenomenal pop group and the
greatest bunch of studio musicians. What
they did in the studio as musicians was amazing, beyond the obvious progression
as recording artists and songwriters.
It really hit home when I listened to Let It Be…Naked a few years
back and what was going on in terms of the guitar parts. Quite often John and George would really work
out these cool two-guitar parts – “And Your Bird Can Sing” for example –
sometimes you don’t even realize that it’s two guitars, but they were very much
into that. Paul was always eclectic
because he was so versatile. I believe
Back to the Egg exemplifies a rock album, a folk album, a pop album, and
certainly less geared to an American consciousness by comparison let’s say to
Venus and Mars. It was also a blessing
and a curse. At the time, that
eclecticism wasn’t appreciated. It was a
two-star album in 1979 and it’s a four-star album in 2010. As time has gone on, I think people have come
to re-evaluate it in terms of Paul’s body of work and what was going on at the
time in the music scene.
When you deconstruct the music, for example “Arrow Through
Me”, harmonically it is almost like Duke
Ellington could have had written it. I
think “Again and Again and Again” was one of Denny’s more immediate and
interesting contributions…
M.T.’: And speaking of Denny, I know it’s a rather obvious thing
to say, but in doing my research for this interview, including watching a lot
of videos, it really hit home for me that Denny was quite visible and a major
presence in this band. I know there are
reports from him that he felt like a sideman at times, but his face was out
there front and center.
Juber: Absolutely. There is
no question that Wings as a core group is the Paul, Linda and Denny
ensemble. This is where it carries over
into getting Wings into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Wings was not just Paul McCartney
post-Beatles. Wings was Paul McCartney’s
group post Beatles, if that makes sense.
If you go see Paul now and when he does a Wings song in his set, it’s
great but there is something missing.
You’re not hearing Linda’s voice; you’re not hearing Denny’s voice;
you’re not getting the qualities that they brought to Paul’s work. It was a tempering. I think Paul recognized that he needed a
foil, without John being around.
Obviously, no one could fill in for John Lennon but Denny has his own
eclecticism with his gypsy/folk sensibilities with an R & B voice and rock
guitar prowess. And Linda was kinda the
glue. Things just worked better with
Linda there in the room because she was Paul’s soulmate and the female
balancing part of his creative energy.
There was a dynamic that happened and, as much as Paul will perform a
Wings song and you tap your foot and sing along with it and think, “What a
great song,” it doesn’t sound like Wings.
I do appreciate the fact that he plays some of those tunes though.
M.T.’: I’ve always felt that he personally never gave Wings enough
credit despite the fact they had 14 Top Ten hits in America (six of those going
to No. 1) and eight Top Ten albums (five of those at No. 1). Today they’d be considered a supergroup.
Juber: Well, Wings was a supergroup. I remember listening to Kasey Casem’s
American Top 40 on the radio and they had the top groups of all-time. The
Beatles were No. 1 and Wings was something like No. 3. I had no idea we were quite that big.
M.T.’: I guess my point is that I get the feeling that Paul never
viewed them as a supergroup…that they were just his little band and they were
forced to live in the shadow of the Beatles.
Wings’ music was the soundtrack of many young lives in the 1970s,
including mine, and I don’t believe he’s ever reconciled that part of his
musical career. Look at Wingspan (the
CD) – he padded it out with solo material that simply didn’t belong on there.
Juber: Wings were simply above and beyond Paul’s solo career. But I think Paul, in the nature of writing
his own legacy, he’s certainly entitled to write his version of history or how
he perceived it, but the fact is there are other factors in the scenario and
other people have their opinions, too. I
too was a little disappointed with Wingspan (the documentary) that so much time
was devoted to the breakup of the Beatles and not enough time was spent on
Wings and the progression of the band and what it really represented from a
musical point of view. But that’s just
water under the bridge. For me, Wings
was a great experience and anything that happens in the history books is sort
of a bonus thing. I got my Master’s
degree from McCartney University and that’s good enough for me.
Read part two of Laurence Juber’s interview next week.
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