M.T.’: Let’s address the reputation Paul McCartney had at the time
for treating members of Wings like “sidemen”, a charge that was leveled by
other Wings members and played up quite a bit in the 1970s.
Juber: A sideman is a typically a musician that is hired to play a
role on stage and/or in the studio. For me specifically, to deliver a guitar
solo, some groove and texture, a cool rhythm guitar part or whatever was
appropriate. For example during the Back to the Egg period, as well as playing
the obvious lead guitar stuff, I played
bass guitar on “Love Awake,” slide acoustic on “After the Ball,” the Flamenco
lead acoustic solo on “Goodnight Tonight.”
So yes, I was a sideman, but the job assignment very much included
considering myself a part of the band.
I’m a bit of a chameleon stylistically and I think that I got the gig
because I could play the bluesy lead stuff, but also other styles like the
jazzy intro on “Baby’s Request.” What’s on the recordings represents the
creative opportunities that Paul afforded me and he gave me a lot of leeway.
The only times he ever told me what to specifically play was when he had a
particular lick, like on “Daytime Nighttime Suffering.”
Addressing the question in financial terms it was still a ‘work
for hire’ and a reasonable improvement from what I was making as a studio
musician. I’ve never had any complaints about the financial end of the
arrangement. Early on, Paul had a bit of a reputation for not paying his
bandmates well. This really goes back to when Wings first started and Paul had
limited cash flow. There were financial
issues because of the way the Beatles broke up and it took a while for those to
be solved. Part of it was also Paul’s idea of creating Wings essentially from
scratch. When the band first started, Paul told me that he [basically only] had
an office and a phone, and got to work. I think he wanted to know the basic
functions of the business end before he would hand it over to someone else. So
basically the attitude was, “This is a small band and we’re going to get in a
bus and go to a college and play at lunch time and share whatever money goes
into the hat.” It’s a nice utopian kind of vision, but it became hard on the
other guys as time wore on and didn’t quite fit with the fact that Paul was a
still a megastar. By the time I joined the band things had changed, although
the ‘esprit de corps’ was still there.
In all its incarnations Wings sounded like a band, not like a solo
McCartney project and I think that reflects well not only on Paul’s ability to
share in the creative process, but also on the importance of Denny and Linda’s
contributions, too. The other players brought their own personalities to the
scene.
M.T.’: And from what little you’ve stated here, it sounds as if he
gave you a lot more leeway creatively than Denny Seiwell, Henry or say Jimmy
McCullough?
Juber: I can’t speak for Jimmy McCullough. Regarding the others,
you’d have to ask Denny Seiwell, but he’s not expressed any reservations about
being creatively inhibited. I do know that Henry McCullough’s solo on “My Love”
has his own voice. I’ve heard a couple of different stories about what went on
there – according to Paul in Wingspan, Henry recorded it live with the
orchestra. According to Trevor Jones (the late Wings roadie), it was an overdub
that took all night to record and Henry was pretty much in tears by the time
they finished recording. So I don’t know who to believe on that. It’s a very
passionate solo and there’s a lot of emotion in there and I’d probably be
reduced to tears, too.
M.T.’: What are your favorite songs on Back to the Egg and why?
Juber: I keep rediscovering tracks. I like “Baby’s Request”;
“Arrow Through Me”; “Spin it On”…
M.T.’: For me, “Spin it On” embodies that particular incarnation
of Wings. Like the band, the song has this incredible energy and sense of fun.
Juber: Yes, agreed…it’s like punk-rockabilly and has this really
cool relentless vibe. I did all the guitar solo stuff on that song in about 20
minutes. At least that’s how long it felt. It was me sitting next to Paul in
the control room, just playing for him. I was just bringing my own personality
to it. Steve Holly came up with the double speed drum overdub on “Arrow Through
Me.” There’s two drum tracks on that song and almost nothing else, other than
the horn lick and the electric piano. I remember Paul Simon came into the
studio and listened to the song and said, “Wow, how did you get that incredible
bass sound?” When we told him it was the left hand of the electric piano he was
truly surprised.
M.T.’: What do you recall of the studio Rockestra lineup (David
Gilmour, Pete Townshend, John Bonham, Kenny Jones, John Paul Jones, Ronnie
Laine, to name but a few) when you recorded “Rockestra Theme” and “So Glad to
See You Here”?
Juber: It was an amazing session. We did those two songs in an
afternoon. These were all seasoned musicians, so they didn’t need much time to
learn the tunes. The technical aspect was a bit challenging because the
engineers were running two 24-track machines linked together, which was a
fairly new thing to do. There were dozens of mic channels all going at once
with three drum kits, six guitars, three basses and keyboards, horns and
percussion. But everybody checked their egos at the door and played great, and
it was such a wonderful experience. Listening to those tracks now, they are
huge, although I don’t know that many people have heard the ‘real deal’. The
’90s-era CD master was only adequate and the download version that was
available for a while was still a compressed format. Hopefully the Concord
release, when it comes, will be an improvement. I’ve got some great unpublished
photos of that session. I remember Linda taking a bunch, too.
M.T.’: Speaking of Linda’s photography, she took some great photos
of you…she is, in my opinion, one of the most underrated rock photographers of
all-time. What made her a great photographer?
Juber: She was completely unpretentious. She wasn’t about people
posing for pictures. It was all candid stuff. A lot of time she shot Polaroids
or 35mm using high-speed B&W film in low-light scenarios. She would use
Kodak recording film and run it at 3200 and not use flash. So a lot of time you
wouldn’t even be aware she was snapping photos. There’s got to be hundreds, if
not thousands of photos she took of Wings on stage. I’m sure there’s lot of
interesting photos of us in her archives. And yes, I think she should be
recognized along with Jim Marshall, Henry Diltz and other rock photographers of
that ilk. Her pictures are amazing.
M.T.’: Most of the songs from Back to the Egg had a music video
shot for them, which was an uncommon thing for artists back in the pre-MTV era.
What stands out in your mind about making those videos?
Juber: What really stands out was the fact that there was no MTV.
Those videos ended up as a half-hour syndicated TV special that I think was
sponsored by Coca-Cola. They were state of the art at the time…look at the
editing techniques on “Spin it On”- it was sped up in sections to give a
special effect. We’re talking 1979, when
answering machines were a new-fangled item. Fax machines were just coming into
existence; there were no cell phones and a single VHS tape would set you back
about $25.
MTV didn’t go on the air until 1981. So in a way, it felt kind of
pioneering, but the real pioneers were the Beatles, weren’t they? “Paperback Writer”; “Rain”; “Penny Lane”; “A
Day in the Life”; “Hello Goodbye.” Those were all done in the sixties. The
Beatles really created the whole original MTV-style with A Hard Day’s Night.
I’m sure there was a certain kind of continuity in Paul’s mind to do promo
videos. And I must say this: even though I was out of my adolescence, there was
still a self-consciousness I had about myself.
“I’m a lead guitarist and a serious musician,” and so I had to loosen up
a bit to get into the spirit of some of those videos. The video for “Wonderful
Christmastime” was great because we got to hang out at the pub and have a
bonfire outside. I definitely remember the “Spin it On” video, because we were
wearing these fake fur-lined leather flight jackets (this was before the veggie
philosophy had really kicked-in). We’re filming in a aircraft hangar in the
cool English Spring, but we had massive amounts of lights behind us, so we were
roasting. When I got home that day, I hung that jacket up and it was still
dripping days later because it was so hot on stage.
M.T.’: The 19-date UK Tour kicked off with a series of concerts in
Liverpool in November 1979. Obviously Liverpool has a special place in Paul’s
heart. Any special memories for you regarding Liverpool?
Juber: It is certainly an appropriate place to start a Macca tour.
We did some kind of press event on a boat on the Mersey. I remember the free
warm-up show we did at the Liverpool Institute, which was Paul’s old school. If
memory serves me correctly, on the opening night all the taxi drivers went on
strike in Liverpool. They deliberately picked that night because the show was
such a big deal.
When you’re on tour, you have your priorities and have to focus on
playing for those two hours onstage. It
was all a grand experience and I was still in the learning mode. One of the
great regrets I have from that period was that by the time we got to Japan, we
had worked out the kinks in our show and things were starting to gel. Listen to
the Glasgow show, and you’ll hear a real band.
The 1979 tour was still thought of as the promotional tour for Back to
the Egg, even though it took place almost six months after the album came out.
But the repertoire was moving beyond that.
We had “Another Day,” “Let ‘Em In”, “Live and Let Die” worked up for
that Japanese tour. It was fun playing Beatle tunes, too.
M.T.’: Two songs that were originally recorded by Paul as a solo artist
but certainly played in concert by Wings on that tour were “Wonderful
Christmastime” and “Coming Up.” Did you learn them in the studio or live?
Juber: We learned both of those songs to play live. When I first
heard the solo version of “Coming Up,” I thought it was a bit fast and quirky.
I preferred what we did with it as a band. It had this rock and R&B
sensibility to it and it just felt cool when we were doing it. “Wonderful
Christmastime” was kind of a novelty number. It’s a nice, jolly tune and is
still one of the all-time Top 25 Christmas records. I almost wish Paul had written another
classic in the vein of “White Christmas.” Nonetheless, it was an original take
on the Yuletide theme. I sang backing vocals on stage and would invariably get
a mouthful of the fake snow that they dropped on the stage during that song.
M.T.’: The fact that “Coming Up” and the entire concert in
Glasgow, Scotland, were recorded live leads me to believe there was a live
album in the works?
Juber: We were just documenting what we were doing. Paul has
subsequently recorded and released a live album of just about every tour. At
that time, not much time had passed since Wings Over America was released and
it was still too early in the game to determine if he was going to release a
live album of this particular tour. “Coming Up” as a live single ended up being
a No.1 record in the summer of 1980, because it really ‘hit the spot’ in what
radio was looking for from Paul McCartney. Had that song been on Back to the
Egg, both it and the album would have been much bigger. It’s a nice piece of
classic rock because it had that nice combination of hook, riff and vibe.
M.T.’: I assume the highlight of that tour for you was the
“Concert For Kampuchea” when you played the guitar solo for “Let It Be” in
front of a ‘Who’s Who of Rock Royalty’?
Juber: No, no. The highlight for me was the whole second Glasgow
concert. Kampuchea was a stage highlight in terms of getting to play with all
the rock luminaries and (laughs) having Pete Townsend looking over my shoulder
on “Let It Be.” At a certain point, I realized no one out of this huge band was
going to step forward to play that solo and I’d been doing it for the whole
tour, so I just went for it. It was one of those moments in my career where I was
able to say, “Well, I got to do that…” It was a magical moment, but the
highlight of the tour from a musical point of view was that last Glasgow
concert. That was the point on the tour when we were really cooking as a band.
It was also a more complete set than Kampuchea. And to be honest, if you listen
to the Last Flight bootleg CD, the version we did of “Let It Be” in Glasgow was
even better. I’ll never forget the audience reaction to the bagpipe band
marching through the audience that night.
M.T.’: Paul McCartney’s marijuana bust in Japan meant the tour had
to be canceled and appears to have led to Wings’ demise. Had Paul not been
busted, were there definitive plans for Wings to tour the United States and
other countries in 1980?
Juber: Yes, there were plans but I don’t know how definitive they
were. We certainly had meetings about it and looked at designs for staging the
show in the US. I also remember all of us watching a news report on Israel with
promoter Harvey Goldsmith, who said, “See that area? We could put a stage there
for you.” He was suggesting that we should hold a concert in Israel. Back to
your question – there was certainly discussion about touring the US in the
summer of 1980. In fact, had we done it, we would have been on tour with the No.
1 single (“Coming Up”) and then Wings could have potentially gone out with a
bang rather than a whimper.
M.T.’: Wings officially folded in April 1981. How were you given
the news?
Juber: We knew before then that it was over. In fact, I moved to
New York at the end of January 1981, so that tells you that, for me, the
writing was clearly on the wall. I didn’t want to hang around when I knew there
was other work to be done. How was I told? Paul called in November and he was
very nice and said, “Listen, I’m doing this album (Tug of War) and George
Martin doesn’t want it be a Wings record, but we’re still going to be working
as a band in January.” And we indeed were working in January 1981 on the Cold
Cuts collection. Things like, “A Love For You” – there‘s some of me in
there. But there was no real reason for
there to be another Wings record and why wait around if there was no tour to
do. It was also coincidental with John Lennon’s death, but the process was
already underway. When John died, it
reinforced the insecurity of being a former Beatle and being out in public at
that point.
M.T.’: It also seems like it was fated that Wings broke up the
same month you met your wife Hope?
Juber: Listen, you have no idea how fated it was…the whole story
of why Hope was in New York in the first place started because of John Lennon’s
death.
She is, and always has been, a big Beatles fan and, after John
died, she became very depressed. She didn’t seem to be getting over it, and her
parents were worried. Her mom called and said, “I know what will make you feel
better – you’re going to get your hair done at my hairdresser.” Hope wasn’t
crazy about the idea, but she went anyway. So she goes to the Beverly Hills
salon, and the hairdresser recognized her sadness and tells her, “You really
don’t seem happy, so why don’t we have a cup of coffee. I’ll finish with my
next client and you go take a walk around the block, by the time you’re done
I’ll be done.” So, she walks around not really looking where she’s going and
she bumps straight into somebody. She is actually standing on a pair of boots.
She looks up and it’s Ringo! Hope apologizes for bumping into him and mentions
how sorry she was about John’s death and he starts to talk to her. He tells her
how he’s getting on with his life, making a new record – which, by coincidence,
was the record I was playing on (Stop and Smell the Roses) – and that focusing
on work at times like these is really important. The next day, her dad (famous
TV producer Sherwood Schwartz) called her and said, “I’m doing a show at
Paramount and I’d like you to work on it as a writer.” She had not been willing
to write for her dad before. It was only because of her encounter with Ringo
that she accepted the offer. Subsequently she went to New York with an actor friend
she met while working at that studio. They had arranged to to meet at a comedy
club. She and I met there and the universe shifted.
M.T.’: I’ve always felt Paul and Linda McCartney were role models
for you and Hope in that rock’n’roll and family can be blended successfully.
Were they role models?
Juber: Absolutely! They were a wonderful example of how a husband
and wife can work together. Linda was
very much the Earth Mother; extremely unpretentious. The McCartneys were, as a
couple, very grounded and truly in love with each other. None of the
game-playing and complications that often go with the entertainment business.
Compare with what happened in Paul’s subsequent marriage with Heather Mills. He
and Linda were a definite influence on my life and marriage.
M.T.’: In July 1980 you recorded “Private Property” and
“Attention” with Paul and Linda McCartney for Ringo Starr’s Stop and Smell the
Roses. What was it like watching Paul and Ringo interact and work together?
Juber: Simply amazing. The fact that I’m sitting there in the
studio watching Paul and Ringo work and I say to myself, “Wow, there’s half of
the Beatles. How cool is this?” They had a sixth sense about each other and
where to go musically. It was magical to watch the two interact. We also did “Sure
to Fall” and Linda’s tune “Love’s Full Glory” that ended up on Wide Prairie.
M.T.’: Six years later you recorded “Shanghai Surprise” with
George Harrison. What was it was like working with him and then, of course, his
experience with your lovely wife, Hope.
Juber: There was a producer named Bob Rose I had been working with
on a few projects, who produced some stuff for Donovan that was released in
Japan, plus an album with Michael Des Barres (the singer from Checkered Past
and Power Station), who I had written some songs with. George Harrison had
asked Bob to help him out with some of the tracks for the Shanghai Surprise
soundtrack, so I went into the studio and played acoustic. I loaned George some
of my equipment and he played on one of my guitars, and we spent a lot of time
talking about the Beatles, because believe it or not, George was a big Beatles
fan. He was just a lovely guy and very gentle.
I literally went directly from being with Hope when she gave birth
to our second daughter Ilsey, to the studio with George. Hope was upset because
she really wanted to meet him, so I got him on the phone to talk to her when
she was in the hospital, and he said, “When you’re ready, come on down to the
studio.” So a couple of days later I took Hope and Ilsey down to Village
Recorders in West LA and George danced around with our new daughter and said
some words in Sanskrit, which he told us was a blessing for ‘the gift of
music’. It worked! She is extremely musical and now she has her own band called
Walking In Space, who are being produced by Randy Jackson.
M.T.’: Didn’t Hope push you in the direction of LJ Plays the
Beatles Vol.1? Even though you were in Wings, it seems as if playing the
Beatles is such a natural fit for you given your analytical mind and adaptability.
Juber: I think that my approach works with tunes from any era and
I’ve tackled classical pieces and standards from the 1930s, as well as my own
tunes. I tend not to discriminate by decade! The Beatles repertoire is just so
rich and resonant to me and my audience.
I had recorded a version of “Rain” on an album of mine called
Mosaic. I’d play it in concert and people would say, “Oh, please do an entire
album of Beatles.” Well, I was reluctant, because those songs are so iconic
and, at that time, I had been focusing on composing rather than arranging. Hope
said, “If you won’t do it for them, at least do it for me.” I said, “Well, then
you’re going to produce it.” She had already been co-producing with me, but I
told her on this one she was totally in charge. And LJ Plays the Beatles turned
out well and proved to be quite popular. Acoustic Guitar magazine selected it
as one of the top 10 acoustic guitar recordings of all time.
M.T.’: And in doing the Beatles, did you have a new appreciation
for them as writers, players and their styles of music that they fused
together?
Juber: Every time I hear a Beatles record, I gain a new
appreciation. Above and beyond the analytical part of it and creating the
arrangements, when I start deconstructing Beatles songs, I find unexpected
things. I can never listen to a Beatles record twice and hear exactly the same
thing. There’s always something that I’ve missed, or a new discovery where you
say, “Wow, what was that little guitar lick?” Or the way in which the backing
vocals come in…there’s always something.
And in a way, it’s a reason why I decided to do LJ Plays the
Beatles Vol. 2. In the decade since Vol.1, I’ve learned a lot in terms of my
guitar artistry and was willing to apply that to a fresh batch of Beatles
songs. (LJ Plays the Beatles Vol. 2 includes “Penny Lane”; “Eleanor Rigby”;
“Drive My Car”; “Here There & Everywhere”; “You Can’t Do That”;
“Blackbird”; “I Feel Fine”; “Dear Prudence”; “When I’m Sixty Four”; “Please,
Please Me,”; “No Reply”; “I Am The Walrus”; “All I’ve Got to Do”; “Michelle”
and “The Long and Winding Road.”)
M.T.’: Was there a particular reason why you chose this batch of
songs for the second volume?
Juber: For business reasons, it was conceived as a
Lennon/McCartney collection. Some of them are favorites; some of them are
guitaristic challenges; some of them are Hope’s suggestions. If Paul had
George’s Chet Atkins-style picking skills, he could have written “When I’m 64”
on the guitar. As it was, he wrote it on the piano, but it fits so neatly onto
the fingerboard with minimal adaptation. With “Penny Lane,” I just wanted to
tackle the musical complexity of the song; the same goes for “I Am the Walrus.”
Having such a positive experience with “Strawberry Fields Forever” on the first
album, I felt “Walrus” was a natural musical heir to that song in John’s
musical development.
There’s often a clear dividing line in their work, even though
they were a partnership. As you know, “Penny Lane”, “Eleanor Rigby”,“Here,
There and Everywhere”, “The Long and Winding Road” and “Blackbird” are very
Paul. “You Can’t Do That”, “I Feel Fine”, “I Am The Walrus” and “Dear Prudence”
are very John. He talked about intending “Please Please Me” to be a Roy
Orbison-style song, so I wanted my arrangement of the song to stay true to
John’s intention, rather than using the Beatle arrangement as a template. When
I started doing it, Hope said, “Yeah, but where’s the urgency?” There’s a primal, sexual energy to the song
and she wasn’t happy until I captured that. Then the challenge was to separate
the intro harmonica motif from the melody. I dropped to to the lower strings
and managed to capture a little of the Orbison ‘twang’ that I was looking for.
M.T.’: “Dear Prudence” seems a natural fit for your finger-picking
style of playing. With that said, was it an easy or hard song for you to
reproduce?
Juber: It was actually kind of hard. Both that song and
“Blackbird” were tricky for that very reason. When I did the first album, I
stayed away from the already finger-picked tunes. Sometimes you have songs
where the guitar part is so familiar that it’s essential to maintain at least
the illusion of the original, while still blending in the melody.
M.T.’: And that’s what I thought was really interesting about LJ
Plays the Beatles Vol. 2 – you are not only playing the melody and the chords,
but your guitar is actually mimicking the vocals and I’ve never heard that in
an instrumental album before.
Juber: Well, yes, that’s my job. That’s really what’s it’s all
about, to articulate the tune. I don’t think of it as mimicry, however. The
process is to represent the melody with a reasonably ‘vocal’ tone and
incorporate this other stuff from the record: vocal nuances, guitar parts, bass
parts, backing vocals etc.
For a lot of the album I used DADGAD which is my favorite
alternate guitar tuning. The original of “Dear Prudence” is in drop D tuning,
and it’s interesting because, even though it’s in D, John twists the pattern so
that he’s not leading with the bottom string; he’s actually leading with the
fifth, the open A string. It ‘floats’ in a way that a normal picking pattern
wouldn’t. Incidentally, it’s actually the same right-hand pattern he uses on
“Julia,” but there it starts on the tonic, the home key note. Using DADGAD, I
was able to configure it so I could get the melody as well as all of the other
bits. John, Paul and George all picked up some picking tricks from Donovan in
India when they were there with Maharishi.
There’s something quite ‘mantra-like’ about repetitive
finger-picking patterns. John had this ability to transcend time in some of his
songs. Add the two together and the results can be quite potent. When we were
recording “Dear Prudence,” it was Hope’s birthday. As part of her present, she
insisted I record it that day, and that evening we were going to see Sir Paul
at the Hollywood Bowl. The house behind my studio was under construction and,
though we recorded a bunch of takes, we couldn’t use them because there was a
low frequency rumble. We had about a brief time-window of 15 minutes from the
time the noise stopped to the time we had to leave to see Paul. When I listened
to the recording the next day, we got everything in that window. On one hand,
it felt like we were stopping time, but on the other hand there was a certain
urgency, which I think was appropriate creatively.
M.T.’: You’re so busy these days with the new CD, the year-round
gigs, your web site…what else are you up to?
Juber: The question is what am I not up to? The best thing to do
is check my web site at www.laurencejuber.com to find out. There’s always
something going on. I recently did a documentary for Dateline NBC called
“Children of the Harvest” about children of migrant farm workers. Dennis
Murphy, the reporter who did the piece, is a fan and requested me. There’s a CD
of that score in the works, also a live CD/DVD from a concert that I did in
2009. I’ve also been doing all the guitar session work on The Secret Life of
the American Teenager, which is a top show on cable TV. Last year I did a
studio album with Barry Manilow, but I don’t know when that’s coming out. It’s
a very interesting rock concept album. I played on a Christmas album with Dan
Hicks and His Hot Licks.
Hope and I have also written a few musicals, one of which was
Hope’s creation called It’s The Housewives! The best way I can describe it is
Dream Girls meets Spinal Tap. That will get a regional premiere production in
Lincoln, Nebraska in March 2011. We also have written the score to Gilligan’s
Island, The Musical and just came back looking at a theater in Hawaii for a
proposed production.
In early March, I’ll be doing the Eight Days A Week Beatle Cruise,
which will be a delightful time. Tony
Bramwell, who was with the Beatles almost since the beginning, will be there
and, if you’re into in-depth knowledge of the Beatles, Tony is the guy to ask.
His book, Magical Mystery Tours is amazing. Plus, the cruise gives me the
opportunity to hang out with Beatles fans, particularly guitar-playing Beatles
fans. I’m pretty free with the information I put out there and there’s an
interesting synergy. This year I’m also doing a lot of live shows. A lot of times my agent emails me and says,
“Here’s where you’re playing,” and I just go out and play my ‘guerilla tours‘
where I’ll hit a particular area of the country for a week or so. But then I’ll
be back at home for a TV or movie score, some sessions or a production gig.
Being a guitarist is what I do, have always done, and the fact that I’m busier
than ever is truly a blessing.
Please feel free to leave any comments or corrections and share
these articles plus the blog's website with your friends, especially Beatles’ fans.
You and they might also enjoy knowing more about my Love Songs CD and my novel,
BEATLEMANIAC. Just click on the “My Shop” tab near the top of this page for
full details.
BLOG for Jan 19th --- Interview with David Bedford,
author of the book, Liddypool: Birthplace of The Beatles
January 1, 2010 by Marshall Terrill.
David Bedford was born in 1965 and grew up in The Dingle,
Liverpool, by the bottom of Madryn Street where Ringo Starr was born. When illness forced retirement upon Bedford,
he was advised by a doctor to find an interest to occupy his time. Bedford began a quest to discover as much as
he could about the history of the Beatles in Liverpool. Almost a decade later, the result is
Liddypool: Birthplace of The Beatles, a gorgeous coffee-table book published by
Dalton Watson Fine Books and includes a foreword by drummer Pete Best.
“To understand The Beatles, you have to understand Liverpool,”
Bedford writes, who is a tour guide and now, one of the most foremost experts
on the Beatles early history.
Q: David, what first
sparked your interest in the Beatles?
DB: Actually, the Beatles
have always been a big part of my life.
I was a Beatles fan from a very young age, having grown up in the Dingle
at the bottom of the road where Ringo Starr was born. I even went to the same primary school that
Ringo had attended some 25 years before. When I learned guitar about the age of
10 and really started developing my musical skills, I learned from the music
book The Beatles Complete. After I married my wife Ali, we moved to the Penny
Lane area. Three children later they
were enrolled into Dovedale school, where many years before John Lennon and
George Harrison had attended. When Yoke Ono kindly donated £30,000 to the school
for a project we were working on in 2000, I covered the story for the London
Beatles Fan Club. This coincided with my doctor signing me off work with a
condition I had been suffering from for two years: fibromyalgia. I was told
that I would never work again. I was 35 with three young children. I was told
that physically I would deteriorate quickly, but it was essential to keep my
mind active. My doctor asked me what my interests were, and I said, “The
Beatles.” Effectively he prescribed The Beatles as my therapy. I read the John
Lennon Encyclopedia by Bill Harry, and began compiling a list of local places
connected with The Beatles. However, when I read other Beatles books, there
were discrepancies between the information given in the various books. I
started devouring books for information, but my medical condition presented me
with a problem: I have short-term memory problems, so I would read 25 pages and
forget what I had read. I started making
notes to help me. I then realized I had lots of pieces of paper with notes, but
they didn’t agree. I decided to visit and photograph these places and keep
notes of the correct information which, at my wife’s suggestion, I decided to
compile into a little book that I could write. That was nine years ago, and
look what happened!
John Lennon (top center) at Dovedale School, 1951
(Photo courtesy David Bedford)
Q: In your foreword you write that most people who write books
about the Beatles don’t understand or have never visited Liverpool. Why is that important for readers of
“Liddypool” to understand?
DB: I was reading books
written by authors from other cities or countries who, in some cases, had never
been to Liverpool. I was reading their book and thinking: hang on mate, you are
writing about my city and telling me anecdotes and historical facts, and
getting it wrong. That really annoyed me and after a while it dawned on me: “To
understand The Beatles, you have to understand Liverpool.” I wouldn’t dream of
writing a book about growing up in New York because I have never experienced
New York and would only be able to re-tell stories written by other people. You
can only understand Liverpool by being immersed in the city – feeling the soul
of the city and growing up in the city. Only then can you understand the
idiosyncrasies of this unique place that was fundamental to shaping the Fab
Four. If you have no understanding of what the city is all about, you will not
be able to fully understand why only Liverpool could produce The Beatles.
Q: How did you come up with
the idea of just focusing the book on their years in Liverpool (1940-1964).
DB: I literally have about
100 books on The Beatles and realized as I was constructing this book in my
mind that to look up information I had to consult many different books. There was not one book alone that acted as a
reference for me. That’s when I decided that I should write about the places
that I knew about – in and around Liverpool. I could tell the story of the
formation of The Beatles, but I didn’t want to stray outside of the area
because that was well documented. I wanted, as a Beatles fan, a book about
Liverpool and The Beatles. Much to my
amazement there wasn’t one. I found a niche, and decided to concentrate on
Liverpool. I also wanted to finish at
the pinnacle of their time in Liverpool on 10th July 1964, when 200,000 fans
lined the streets to welcome home their favourite sons and give them a civic
reception. It was an incredible moment in their life, and, although they
probably hadn’t fully realized it, was one of the last times Liverpool saw
them. It was in my mind a logical place to finish the book.
(Photo courtesy David Bedford)
Q: Just in Liverpool alone,
there were so many rumors, half-truths and speculation about the band. Why do you think that is?
DB: It’s the nature of the
beast – people want to get as close as they can to history. For this book, I decided to go direct to
source wherever I could because there were so few books I could rely on. I
interviewed The Quarrymen, Allan Williams, Pete Best, Julia Baird, Bill Harry,
Alistair Taylor, Sam Leach and many more. I found myself reading the same
stories over and over in the various books, right or wrong, as if there was one
source which everyone used irrespective of accuracy. But when I spoke to these eyewitnesses, they
were sometimes giving me a separate story. That worried me because as well as
the Chinese whispers theory where stories change every time they are told,
memories fade over the years too. Plus, as with any phenomenon, some people who
have a peripheral involvement suddenly see their opportunity and talk-up their
part for their own ego, which then passes into folklore. I was determined to
investigate everything I was told and corroborate it with as many sources as
possible. Everyone in Liverpool it seems has their own Beatles’ story and are
keen to tell you. You have to be on your
guard!
Q: What was the biggest
rumor you’ve corrected in the book?
DB: Probably that Pete Best
was dismissed because he was a rubbish drummer.
There are so many theories that can be dismissed quite easily such as
his failure to change his haircut! As no
explanation was ever given to Pete, we have to gather the opinions of those who
were there at the time, with no definitive answer available. I was not
satisfied by any of those theories offered and eventually came up with a theory
of my own. In the group’s history there were various musicians who were
discarded along the way, not often by their own choice. When necessary John, Paul and George took the
decision to jettison a band member for, in their eyes, the good of the group.
One particular occasion involved the night at The Casbah when Ken Brown
couldn’t play with The Quarrymen because he was ill. John, Paul and George played without him.
When Mona Best paid the group their money, John wanted to know why the money
was still split four ways when Ken hadn’t played that night. John, supported by Paul and George, demanded
Ken’s share of the money or they wouldn’t play at The Casbah again. Mona
wouldn’t back down, so John, Paul and George walked out without Ken. When I looked at the events between June 1962
and August 1962, it was clear that George Martin was not going to use Pete Best
to drum on the records. However, Martin
didn’t see the need to replace Best. When you look at the reason how Ringo
joined the group, it was clear that he was employed on a fixed fee per week for
a probationary period, and would not enjoy the royalties accrued by any records
at the time. The record revenue, at one penny per record, would therefore be
split three ways – between John, Paul and George – with Ringo not receiving
payment. This reminded me of the situation involving Ken Brown, and worked
around that as a basis for my theory. The more I delved into the details
surrounding Pete’s dismissal the more it seemed to fit. As yet, no one has been able to dismiss my
theory because no one is willing to talk about it. To this day Pete still doesn’t know why he
was dismissed. Sadly, I don’t think
he’ll ever know the real truth.
Q: I was amazed to
discover how many incarnations of the group there were. Talk about how many times they broke up or
morphed into something else, and how fate played a hand in all of this.
DB: Like many fans, you
start at the beginning of your interest knowing that The Beatles were John,
Paul, George and Ringo, managed by Brian Epstein. You then find out that
manager Allan Williams gave them away, and that they used to be called The
Quarrymen. I started reading more about how John started The Quarrymen, and how
there were different names being mentioned and I set out to find every musician
who had ever played with the various groups, and the different name changes
too. This, I assumed, was a simple task. It turned out to be one of the most
challenging aspects of the book. The story of the “Fab Four” eventually became
the “Fab 27” and includes one-off appearances by people like “Ron the Ted” and
Rory Storm, to more important musicians like Ivan Vaughan and Stuart Sutcliffe
who are integral to the story. I found that before they were called The
Quarrymen, they were called the Blackjacks, which was also the same name of Ken
Brown and Pete Best’s first group. The biggest surprise was to find out that
when The Quarrymen were down to only John, Paul and George, they disbanded in
January 1959 when George Harrison left to join The Les Stewart Quartet. When
The Casbah was due to open in August 1959, The Les Stewart Quartet with George
Harrison on guitar, were booked for opening night. A few weeks before this event Les Stewart –
or more precisely his girlfriend – decided that they shouldn’t do the gig! Ken
Brown and George Harrison stormed out and promised Mona Best that they would
get a band together to open the club.
George rang two old friends of his – John Lennon and Paul McCartney –
and re-formed The Quarrymen to open the club as John, Paul, George and
Ken. What would have happened if the Les
Stewart Quartet had opened the club?
Q: Liddypool also pays
tribute to Mona Best and The Casbah Club’s importance in the group’s
development. Talk about the club and why
has it been overlooked through the years?
DB: The biggest surprise to
a Beatles fan growing up in Liverpool was to discover the “hidden gem” that is
The Casbah. All I knew about was the legend of The Cavern where they made more
than 300 appearances. But was it the “birthplace of The Beatles? I assumed it
was. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I
discovered The Casbah in a book, The Beatles: the True Beginnings. Was it for
real? I had to find out so I contacted Roag Best who gave me a guided tour.
Here was the true birthplace of The Beatles.
It opened in August 1959 by Mona Best who was a true visionary. This
club was like stepping back in time because it is still how it was when it
closed in 1962. The ceiling is hand-painted by John Lennon and Paul McCartney,
and with stars painted by John, Paul, George, Ken Brown, Pete Best and Stuart
Sutcliffe. Just walking into the place
you can feel an incredible buzz. When the earliest Beatles books were written,
Mona and Pete Best were not keen to discuss the success of the group that had
dismissed Pete on the threshold of fame because, rightly so, they were
bitter. And so those books just didn’t
mention The Casbah. This goes back to the reason for starting this book: not
relying on other people’s books to re-tell the same old story. If you have a
book that claims to tell the real story of The Beatles and doesn’t mention the
importance of The Casbah, then you are not reading the real story. This is where they first played outside of
Germany as The Beatles, before they became famous, and before The Cavern. That
is why there is a whole chapter just on The Casbah: it is a phenomenal place.
Q: Give us a brief
thumbnail of the Merseybeat scene in the late 1950s and who were some of the
bigger groups at the time?
DB: When the Lonnie
Donegan-inspired skiffle craze hit Britain in 1956, skiffle groups like The
Quarrymen sprang up across the nation. Skiffle didn’t last long but by then
Elvis was shaking his hips and Buddy Holly played in Liverpool, who
incidentally, were watched by John, Paul and George. They were inspired by the real thing – rock
‘n’ roll. When The Quarrymen had morphed into The Silver Beatles, they were not
particularly good. If you wanted to see
a top group, then you followed Rory Storm and the Hurricanes, Derry and the
Seniors, The Searchers, The Swinging Blue Jeans, Gerry and the Pacemakers and
Kingsize Taylor and the Dominoes among others. The Casbah played host to all of
the top Merseybeat groups. By 1962 there
were an estimated 300 rock ‘n’ roll groups in Liverpool playing at clubs across
the area. I have charted the clubs played by The Quarrymen or The Beatles, and
there are over 100. Alongside rock ‘n’
roll was a thriving jazz scene in the fifties, plus country and western and
folk clubs, too.
Q: Of the four Beatles,
only Paul McCartney seemed to be sentimental about Liverpool and its colorful
roots. Why did John, George and Ringo
not feel the same way?
DB: When I interviewed
John’s half-sister Julia Baird, it was clear that in the 1970s John was
homesick and had asked for some mementos from home. His visa problems in the US meant that any
trip home was impossible for many years.
Who knows what would have happened if he hadn’t been killed? I suspect he was going to return one day to
Liverpool. George kept contact with some
of his family and supported some Liverpool projects, most notably the
restoration of the Victorian Palm House in Sefton Park, to which he contributed
a sizeable donation. Ringo has supported some projects in The Dingle,
especially his old schools – St. Silas and Dingle Vale Secondary Modern. But he had desired to live in America since
childhood and has never really seemed to miss Liverpool. These efforts pale
into insignificance when you see what Paul McCartney has done for his home
town, both in public and private donations, most notably the Liverpool
Institute for Performing Arts. Paul
still makes regular visits to his family here and has demonstrated publicly his
love for Liverpool. He is without a
doubt the city’s favorite son.
Q: Yoko Ono emerges from
your book as one of Liverpool’s biggest contributors and has preserved a lot of
the Beatles history. What are some of
the things she’s done over the years?
DB: When you talk about
Paul McCartney’s contribution to Liverpool, it has been covered quite well in
the media. Yoko Ono has never enjoyed the same response from the media, and she
hasn’t always courted that media interest, either. She has contributed to
Dovedale School, both publicly and privately, and bought Mendips and then
donated it to the National Trust. She
also supported Strawberry Field Children’s Home and agreed to the new name
change for Liverpool John Lennon Airport.
She has supported and promoted Liverpool whenever she can. One of her
most recent acts has been to set up the “Imagine Appeal” at Liverpool
Children’s Hospital at Alder Hey. She’s
allowed them to use a drawing by John as the logo and supported the raising of
funds for medical equipment for the children of Liverpool. She has not had to
do anything for Liverpool but she carries on in John’s name, and that makes her
a hero in my book.
Q: You end Liddypool with
the Beatles triumphant return to City Hall in July 1964. It appears as if Liverpudlians understood
from that point the Beatles belonged to the world. Give us a historical perspective of how
important the Beatles are to the legacy of Liverpool and how they are viewed
there today?
DB: The Beatles left The Cavern
in August 1963 promising to return, but never did. Liverpool’s fans knew that
they were leaving for good, and had to share them with the world. Simply, the
Beatles put Liverpool on the map and cemented the city in the minds of people
everywhere. If you say you are from Liverpool, then people in most places of
the world will reply: “Yes, The Beatles.” With the decline of the port’s
fortunes, leisure and tourism has become an integral part of the life of
Liverpool in the 21st Century, and most of that is down to the legend of The
Beatles. Fans make their pilgrimage from
all corners of the earth to visit Penny Lane, The Cavern, Strawberry Field and
other equally famous places. Liverpool
is the birthplace of The Beatles but is also an 800-year-old town that has some
of the finest architecture in Europe; a World Heritage Waterfront; some of the
finest museums and art galleries in Britain and the Liverpool Football Club
(still the most successful British football team). These are gems you discover
when you get here but it is The Beatles that get you here in the first
place. Liverpool: there are places
you’ll remember for the rest of your life.
Liddypool is published by Dalton Watson Fine Books and can be
ordered by going to www.daltonwatson.com.
Marshall Terrill is the author of a dozen books
Please feel free to leave any comments or corrections and share
these articles plus the blog's website with your friends, especially Beatles’
fans. You and they might also enjoy knowing more about my Love Songs CD and my
novel, BEATLEMANIAC. Just click on the “My Shop” tab near the top of this page
for full details.
